@Ray,
This argument is similar to the one used to prevent Gay marriage. Opposers said that there was no discrimination because gays had the right to marry whomever they cared to, just like the heterosexuals!
It didn't hold water then and it shouldn't now.

No Apjlak,
my argument is nothing as you describe, try reading it again.

Parenst have the right to send their kids to any scholl they want regardless of any voucher or tax credit system. I know parents who send their kids to private schools and have done so without these things.

Actually, I think it very similar. Your argument that we still have the right to send our children to the school of our choice disregards the fact that we need to pay much more for that right.
While we believe that it was worth it, other than benefiting as a member of a society that provides education to it's youth, we received nothing for my tax dollars.

I needed to pay extra. Unfortunately, I never received any tax credits although that extra money would have helped out tremendously.

Essentially, I was punished by deciding to improve my children's education by having to pay more.

A voucher system/Education tax credit scenario creates true competition and incentive to improve the quality and efficiency of the public schools.

"Your argument that we still have the right to send our children to the school of our choice disregards the fact that we need to pay much more for that right."

No you don't, the tuition is still the same.

"Essentially, I was punished by deciding to improve my children's education by having to pay more."

No you didn't, you paid the same as everyone else.

"...we received nothing for my tax dollars."

You received a lot for your tax dollars, your tax dollars went for the education of your fellow citizens and their children. Your tax dollars went toward preventing ignorance in your society. Do you want to live in a society where everyone is ignorant?

I needed to pay extra. Unfortunately, I never received any tax credits although that extra money would have helped out tremendously.

You didn't pay anything more than anyone else. If you want a private education for your kids, you have to pay for it yourself, why shouold the rest of society have to pay you extra?

My decision to spend additional monies on my family's education, beyond the portion of my tax dollars which are apportioned to education, was made because we believed that the local public and regional schools were no longer sufficient despite the outrageous cost per pupil.
Why should we be forced to pay for sub-par performance when there are ways to fix the broken system? These credits are one such way!

Apljak,
my neighbors have been living in the neighborhood for forty years and paying taxes on their home for forty years. They have no children.

Why should they pay to send your kids to school?

By the way, Nashua schools are perfectly sufficient.

They are not sub-par.

The system is not broken, that's your opinion.

@Ray,
I don't have the time to actually link to the findings but you might be slightly disingenuous if you are to purport that our public school education even competes with those of other countries (who actually spend less per pupil).

I am the product of public school, grateful for my experience, and yes, I have seen it decline. You are fooling yourself if you don't believe it!
Every school? Obviously not!
I would suggest that a big reason that suburban schools do better is due to the family involvement in the home as well as other socio-economic reasons.
I don't think that the schools are irreparably broken, however, I believe that something very different need be employed. Honestly, I don't even have many answers but I think that the same old, same old shouldn't cut it anymore!

I am far beyond asking for anyone to help me pay for my children's education. From you, your neighbors, or anyone else...I am already assisting in private schools for my grandchildren!
I don't think, however, that providing an alternative, by means of tax credit or vouchers is a bad thing. I believe that parent involvement due to choice may serve as just one of the resultant benefits.
And for the record, sub-par may be a subjectiveterm but test scores throughout the collective public school system

aplejack, a voucher system becomes a system for the rich and you know it! Vouchers don't increase in value but tuition in private schools do. Give a few vouchers to the poor and the rich can afford to pay, but not everyone will go to school. Ridiculous.

aplejack "Ray I don't have time to link the findings"...seriously aplejack? You have time to post these lengthy posts, but not 5 seconds to google?

No Sonia, I don't "know it" nor do I agree that vouchers work only for the rich, in fact, quite the opposite is true.
Vouchers level the playing field for less fortunate families and offer them choice away from the status quo and lower barriers formerly in place..."and you know it!" Or however it is that you try and win arguments by stating your opinion and supplying pointless biased links.

aplejack, vouchers don't increase in value. Sorry!

Sonia, you are making declarations on something that has yet to be instituted.
The state could enact a voucher system that. Actually does increase in value.
Are you really so narrow minded that you can't suggest solutions, only the reasons why things won't work?

Ray:

Steve's a Libertarian and Free State Project person.

http://www.elsol.org/steve/default.html

He's arguing from that point of view and you're wasting your breath trying to debate this with him.

Thanks Atlant,
I don't mind a back and forth exchange with Mr. Cobb, as long as it's friendly, but I do realize that NH Libertarian Free Staters are not that open minded.

Atlant,
should have taken your advice....

@Sonia,
Are you trying to be insulting by referring to the over 2000 years of faith and traditions as "crap?"
Do you realize how inappropriate it makes you seem?
Do you realize how much good these religious organizations do around the world and how many people would be hurt if they didn't exist.
I went to public school and I sent my children to private, however, I also familiar with catholic school education (I can't speak for other religions.) Maybe you should familiarize yourself with the curriculum before you start commenting about their views on Science, modernity, and the like. Unless you intend to continue to show how uninformed you truly are!

You mean 2000 yrs of suppressing women,less education,not accepting some people and judging everyone because of a book that was written when they still thought the earth was flat?Look up the Greek "God of Sun", worshipped the sun, birth was Dec 25th,written before the Christian bible.Can you connect the dots on the translation mix up?The Vatican was a powerhouse of control then and they still are now;they protect pedofiles, ever hear of Cardinal Law?The second he leaves the Vatican, he can be arrested...betting he'll never leave but they allowed him to give a mass for the last pope's death.I have friends who went to Catholic schools and one who sent their daughter there because of bullying problems. Neither thought they got a better education. The teachers there get their degrees at the same schools as the teachers in the public schools. Do you think without religion, other groups or associations wouldn't have formed and did great work for others? Keeping women barefoot and pregnant made them holy with too many children to feed and care for, then the church would say "You'll get into heaven if you pay me 10% even though you can barely feed your ten kids"....that's the kind of help religion gave to people.

"Long before the Christian era, the sun was known as the “Son of Ormuzd,” the “Mediator,” while his adversary, Ahriman, represented the darkness, which caused the fall of man.
The sun was considered the “Savior of the World,” as it rose and brought light and life to the planet. It was revered for causing seeds to burst and thus giving its life for plants to grow; hence, it was seen to sacrifice itself in order to provide fertility and vegetation. The sun is the “tutelary genius of universal vegetation,” as well as the god of cultivation and the benefactor of humankind. When the sun “dies” in winter, so does the vegetation, to be “resurrected” in the spring." http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/mistic/songod_sungod.htm

Sonia,
I am sorry that you need to carry such animus for Catholicism.
I have no desire to defend the men responsible for the abuse scandals. I pray that they all must answer for their sins, either criminally or Divinely.
I would argue that while the teachings of the Bible, God's word, is perfect, the messengers (mortal men) are truly imperfect.
Just as the notion of a family unit is perfect, we humans find ways to muck it up. Just because there have been centuries of domestic abuse doesn't mean that the entire concept of a family is corrupt!
I didn't mean for this to be a religious discussion,believe whatever you choose to, it is just that you were way off topic. This article was about education tax credits.
I am sure that they are discussing religion on some other site! Welcome to this one!
Funny how things come around, huh?!

aplejack, most private schools are religious based here...hence the topic of religion.

@sonia,
You must be now, or must have been in the past, as it seems that only a teacher that has been jaundiced by the current state of public education would be so stridently in support of continuing on with the way things are (probably born from self interest and not in the best interest of our children).
To be so against alternatives speaks volumes.

again aplejack...private schools are not better...they are all ruled by lobby money. it's easy to pick a country with a good system and copy, we are not that dumb, we choose not to because of the lobby groups and book publishing companies.

Sonia,
I guess we can agree to disagree. In my experience, private school education is better; both in the K-12 as well as the collegiate level.
I confirmed you accusatory statement that I must be a man, yet you fail to acknowledge whether you are/were a teacher...

Dear Aplejack, YES I was a teacher, not hiding, why does it mean so much to you? Since we are acknowledging and sharing with pride, how about a name to be proud of behind all those strong views of yours? Who? What? The reason you found private schools better is because you didn't have to deal with people who have poverty issues and more stress than the elite few that you hung out with at school. The people you went to school with didn't have to worry about anything, purchased whatever they wanted when it comes to basic needs and you didn't have to mingle with the rest of society who struggled because they were beneith you financially. You would be surprised how much you would have learned and grown as an individual if you met other people who are not like you financially. Everyone has a story and the poorest people with the toughest lives have taught me the greatest lessons in life. Sad for you that you were stuck in an environment with the elite who value things more than people. It explains a lot.

@Sonia,
It is vary scary to me that you are teaching, scratch that--indoctrinating our kids!
You have so much to rant about that you don't want to read basic facts, or choose to disregard them. I was not the product of a well-to-do upbringing, in fact, it was quite the opposite.
a) my name-it is unimportant and unnecessary. I am just an average, hard-working,church-going, God-fearing, taxpayer with some opinions. I try to be both sympathetic and empathetic. I own a small constrution business, employ about 20 people, and average 80 hours per week. I have needed to work since I was 11. I am not anyone famous like you.
b)I grew up probably poorer than you, with friends that were both worse and better off than me.
c)There has been much tragedy, heartbreak and pain in my life, hopefully the likes of which you won't encounter; so please stop trying to mind-f@#$ me and get off your soapbox about learning other peoples sob stories. I am far from an elitist and have lived those very stories with the people I grew up with.
d)Women aren't animals. Expect some damn personal responsibility for cause and effect and stop promoting and encouraging abortion as a means of birth control. Conception doesn't just happen spontaneously while walking down the street!

You're a fruitcake, to put it mildly.

AppleJack is a cereal, not a fruit cake.

A is for Apple, J is for Jacks, Cinnamy, Toasty...! LOL!

Apljak, I taught in Canada, which has a better education system then here and zero private schools in the province I taught; test scores are high, teachers improve the books every 3-5 yrs, everything is measurable for progress, they are not sold pre-published book contract deals from publishing companies from one school to another...it's socialism books, as a tea partier would call it, which is why your system will not improve. You claim to be all these things Apljack but still refuse to say your name; I could say I'm a rocket scientist. For all we know, you are on unemployment and living on your mother's couch. You say ridiculous statements like "I grew up poorer than you". Please, I can't wait to hear how you figure you would be able to know anything about how I grew up compared to you? As for women, you really don't have a clue. Don't try. Always funny when a man tells a woman what to do with abortion when they don't have a uterus or know what it's like to be a single mother with a baby. Great news though Obama's favorability is highest since first year in office. http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/01/30/obamas-favorability-highest-since-first-year-in-office-abcwashington-post-poll/

@Sonia,
Please take a breath.
You are the one that made the many inaccurate claims about my rich, elitist, male upbringing and schooling. And yet you act offended when I merely suggested that I PROBABLY (not definitively) grew up poorer than you. Not too good on the reading for detail part of the teaching requirement are you?
The very things you say about men, if you were a man saying such things about women, you would be a misogynist. But you seem very comfortable with such rubbish. It is both inappropriate and offensive.
As for my name, I will make one up for you if you like. But honestly, with the hysterical, accusatory, rants that I sometimes see on these boards, I realize that there are probably a few bunny boilers out there that I have no desire finding on my doorstep after the voices in their head directed them to start "googling" in pursuit of my personal information!
I don't know you, I don't presume to know anything about your upbringing and I really don't care, but your apparent hatred for white males is quite palpable and I hope that you can reconcile whatever pain caused it!

@Sonia,
I forgot to add...
I am who I said.
Rest assured, I don't live on my mother's couch.
And not every posting has to be about Obama. We already know what a shill you are for him, it just becomes redundant.

Definitions of socialism are many and evolving with time, but most would agree that government financing, ownership, and administration of the means of production is socialism. Public schools are such a sector of the US economy. The NH education tax credits program does not eliminate government financing; it merely provides for alternative ownership and administration, expanding choice for parents of lesser means.

"Public schools are such a sector of the US economy"

Wrong Mr. Cobb.

Government does not "own the means to production" within the education industry.

In fact, a cottage industry exists, it's called "home-schooling" whereby the families "produce" their own education, not to menation many, many private schools and the Catholic Parochial school institution.

Collectivism is not socialism. Example, life insurance is a collectivist endeavor.

Our Government has done lots of things such as build maintain libraries, build and maintain roads and bridges, and build and maintain public parks and property,

all done collectively, but certainly this is not Socialism.

Sonia Prince, free-staters are garden-variety libertarians. Yes, I write from the viewpoint of a libertarian as well as an atheist, but let's please avoid ad-hominem attacks and stick to the rules of civilized discussion. More relevant to my viewpoint on education is my time in Europe, where I saw government-run schools that were smaller, safer, and more focused on education than US public schools. One of the primary differences is parental choice. Another difference is spending: in the US, per-pupil spending is much higher ($15.7K in NH), but choice seems to be more important.

Well I went to school in Canada where private schools are not necessary. By the way, the people who graduate from France's public schools are among the top educated in the world. Many developped nations have only public schools and beat out our scores easily and don't spend hardly as much as we do here. Problem here are lobby checks from book publishing companies and financial industry that push back if the schools decide to teach anything to kids other than how to write a check in the check book. Where did you go to school in Europe?

Sonia,
Your own post supports the notion that the public education system is broken.
Some define Insanity as doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
Why might you not entertain these education tax credits as one possible solution instead of being a public school advocate in spite of your knowing the truth that it needs to improve?

aplejack, everything can use improvements, I'm simply stating that private schools and religious schools are not the answer. Many wonderful developped nations like Finland...they don't start school until they are 7, don't have homework until they are in their teens, pay their teachers better than physicians, children get 75 min of recess a day vs our measly 25 min, and they are way smarter than US kids...and they spend 30% less. http://www.businessinsider.com/finlands-education-system-best-in-world-2012-11?op=1

France goes to school 4 days a week, their teachers are very well paid, kids get 2 hr lunch break a day and they beat out our education system in the world....private schools are not the answer....simply copy and paste a system that works elsewhere for less money...not rocket science, but book deals are in the works...many lobby checks flowing....many schools in the same district don't always use the same books, let alone the same state...impossible to compare and improve. In France and Canada, teachers get together from all over the state for one subject and one grade...they improve their books and make the necessary changes by voting what worked best and least from the previous years and reprint the better version. You'll never see that here as long as lobby checks are legal.

Sonia,
Actually I agree with a lot of what you say.
The private and religious schools are not the answer but they offer a better option to the status quo.
Education starts at home and unfortunately, too many families treat school as day care. They have no interest in what their children are doing!
This program just helps in bettering a system that is broken and in need of reform, from lobbies to the NEA.

Apljak,

False right wing propaganda that the public school system doesn't work.

The public schools in big cities have been abandoned, but the suburban schools do well, follow the money. Those public schools that have the money do well.

Just because some schools fail, it does not follow that the system is broken and that all schools fail.

Ray,
There is more than enough school funding in the big cities to educate the children. Unfortunately, it just isn't managed very well!

Apljak,
you are incorrect,
our big city schools are funded on a shoestring.

The students of public schools from affluent American suburbs are on par with the best schools in the world.

ARay,
Just because you say doesn't make it true.
The GAO would also disagree.
Inner City school funding is not on a shoestring, in fact, in many cases it is more than suburban schools!

Apljak,
inner cities have been abandoned.

That's historical fact.

@Ray,
You mean to say your revisionist, historical fact!

"Try opening a private school of any sort, few people are rich enough to be your customers"

That's like saying the government ought to by everyone a Cadillac. That situation is a byproduct of the free market system, it has nothing to do with government.

That was the case in Jefferson's days, the private schools competed for students among the rich who made up the demand, they had the ability and the desire to buy an education, while there was a large class of poor who were not part of the demand because they had the desire but not the ability to buy an education. The free market does not fulfill needs FOR ALL it meets demands (those with the desire and ability to pay). The education market did nothing to meet the needs of the poor.

Jefferson's idea was to create a public school funded via local property taxes, in which all students (male only at the time) could go.

There will be no service without government subsidized service, history and Jefferson prove my argument valid.

And speaking of cost,
the taxpayer gets much more for their money via public schools compared to private institutions.

And when you compare those costs, please be reminded that private schools do not do what public schools do, that is private schools havethe luxury of discriminating against those students who require higher overhead.

Publics schools do it all, private schools only cater to a niche market.

Mr. EJLR,
You are way off base sir.

This isn't about the redistribution of income. No one's income is redistributed. The taxes raised are used to pay for a service that benefits the public good. You are blinded by your ideology.

You must not be from the United States because In America we have a long history of collecting taxes and using that money to pay for infrastructure and services that benefit society as a whole.

You should get yourself a good public school education and learn about early American history because one of the most important issues of the early days of the Republic included the raising of taxes to pay for infrastructure such as roads and canals that benefited farmers, loggers, and miners operating in the hinterlands. Based on your myopic view, that would be "redistribution of city folk income" that benefited people in the hinterlands.

Taxation is not stealing. Such thinking is radical, anti-social, un-American, and not in keeping with the traditions of this country.

"...in all truth, that money should be going straight to whatever school a parent chooses, without the intervention of any government..."

Such a radical view of government. This is not libertarianism, but instead feudalism.

Based on such myopic logic, the taxes I spend for Citibus should be credited back to me so I could instead buy a better car, but then again, I wouldn't have a road drive it on since it's difficult for individuals to own their own highways (unless I was Kramer in a Seinfeld episode where I sponsored my own Highway).

This isn't "Liberty", it's instead feudalism.

"...presupposes society should be compelled to redistribute its income into the system *he* chooses to support."

First off it's not redistribution of income, it's financial support through taxation, much like we support roads, parks, playgrounds, public libraries.

Second, yes, I do advocate that the public educate their children via a public school system; however, I do not presuppose that anyone be compelled to send their child to public schools, they can send their child tto private school or homeschool; however, that does not dismiss their tax obligation, much like my tax obligation to the library is not dismissed when I buy a book at Barnes and Noble. Remember, the taxpayer isn't just paying for his or her own children's schooling when he pays taxes, he is paying to educate his neighbor's childdrenn also.

Childless couples who pay taxes for forty years are not owed back the money they paid toward educating other people's kids. So people who take their kids out of public scholls are not owed back any tax money they might have paid.

So call me a conservative. I advocate conserving the system in use for over 100 years in America.

Nobody sending their kids to BG wants them going to school with poor kids.

@Really,
What an idiotic statement. What can be so wrong in your life that you feel the need to make such hateful and incorrect statements?

If you can't afford private school for your kid, get a loan, that's the free market way, but don't expect the tax payer to fund your kid's deluxe education. You should go Dutch through the public school like everyone else. You are not entitled to a cadillac education unless you pay for it.

There is no free lunch.

We didn't want a deluxe education, just adequate. And I paid for it by myself.
Vitriolic statements such as the aforementioned are not necessary. In fact, they are somewhat sad if they are formed from honest feelings...
How do you propose to fix the schools seeing that they are in need of great repair.
Tax credits just happen to be one such improvement!

"We didn't want a deluxe education, just adequate. And I paid for it by myself.
Vitriolic statements such as the aforementioned are not necessary"

Don't make things up, you are not a victim of vitriolic statements.

If you want an adequate education, send your children to public schools.

It's a fact, public schools do deliver adequate education in America.

You are misinformed and deeply invested in right wing propaganda that tells you public schools are a failure.

Tax credits do not repair public schools,
that's false.

@Ray,
I am not making anything up. I never said I suffered vitriolic statements but what is:
"Really??
8:00 am on Wednesday, January 30, 2013
Nobody sending their kids to BG wants them going to school with poor kids." ?

Do you share that type of comment about the parents of BG students?

Apljak,
I don't know what motivates people to send their kids to BG.

I'm sure each person has their own reason. Really's explanation might have some truth to it, though I wouldn't say that's the case for all.

If you want to send your kids to parochial school that's your right.

I do know that the successes of public schools have been understated and the failures of public schools amplified from personal experience.
...

fair enough!

If anyone doesn't believe that BG's draw is the exclusivity, they are fooling themselves. BG is an inferior school, to public schools, in every way except BG is allowed to hand select its students.
If BG starts taking state money, they will no longer be allowed to use an entrance exam to weed out the hard to teach students.

Really,
I agree with what you say about BG, except that some parents might be motivated not necessarily to avoid poor kids but because their perception is that BG is a better school.
And you are right, the exclusivity is definately an attraction.
If the parochial schools had to do what the public schools do, they would fail.

So, if one is not rich here are the liberals' choices regarding schools:

- Send your kids to the public schools even if they are not the right ones for your kids.
- Move
- Get a loan.

Nice. One can pay thousands of dollars in real estate taxes, most of which goes to the local schools, and you have to accept the "one size fits all" of the public school or suffer financial hardship to put your kids in private school.

I like the Academy of Science and Design in Nashua (http://www.asdnh.org/) and wish there were more choices like this for parents...

"So, if one is not rich here are the liberals' choices regarding schools:

- Send your kids to the public schools even if they are not the right ones for your kids.
- Move
- Get a loan."

Seamus,
you are 100 percent wrong.

Here are your choices without public school
-Get a loan
- Remain uneducated.

The problem with necons is that they refuse to acknowledge historical facts.

The emergence of the public school system in America was due to a glaring lack of education available for the majority of Americans. The free market failed to meet the educational needs of the people. So the people did something about it.

If you advocate privatization of America's schools, you advocate putting America back into the condition it was at the turn of the 19th Century. Education was privatized at one time, when Jefferson observed that only children from rich families received a formal education. Public schools were not created to compete but instead to fill a need that was unmet.

This is the fact, again a FACT, that Mr. Cobb and necons such as yourself refuse to acknowledge.
Mr. Cobb cries "unfair competition" but in FACT, public schools exist to fill a void.
It's typical of non-reality based neocon thinking.

@Ray,
Pardon me if this question appears ignorant (Although you probably would suggest that all of my comments are ignorant... :-) ), what do you mean by necon.
Do you mean Neocon? And if so, what does that descriptor have to do with the education tax credit issue that is being discussed?
I think that all parties present can stipulate as to why public schools exist and how they came to be.
The historical facts don't offer the system carte blanche or excuse it from accountability.
I don't see any movement to entirely privatize education, I see a push for parental choice.
There is far too much waste and bloat in the system and it needs to be put on a life changing diet. This may take a plethora of different approaches, however, competitive analysis is just one facet of the solution.

How about these choices Seamus,
Talk to your child's guidance counselor.
Get a variance to go to a different school.
Go to a charter school.
Try home schooling if you would like.
Or even send them to private school on a scholarship, or god forbid pay for this alleged upgrade in education.

Apljak,

I never said all your comments are ignorant.

Neocon is short for neoconservative, in my book a phony conservative.

All the parties cannot stipulate how the public school system came to be, you do not make things up as you go along. The historical record speaks for itself, despite neocon attempts at rewriting history.

And you are not very observant if you do not see the neocon movement to defund, undermine, and destroy public school education. The ALEC - OBrien bill to give tax credits undermines badly needed public school funding.

Apljak, open your eyes to the trickery.

@Ray,
Hopefully they aren't ignorant. I do try an put some amount of thought into my comments.
I do enjoy a little "parry and thrust" and this particular comment section has been somewhat entertaining and thought provoking.
I am just an average guy with not much if any power to induce change in the system.
I am no activist and actually, don't have too much time away from my business to spend on politics. (Although I have spent far too much time commenting here lately, but fortunately I am the boss. :-) )
I admit I don't know all the ins and out of the bill but I will look at it more closely.
I know that I am fairly opinionated but I also realize that there is more than my perspective on an issue.
Let's keep the conversations going, and I will do my best to keep the discourse as civil as possible...although some good-natured ribbing never hurt anybody
In fact, it can be downright fun some times, right?!
Thanks for letting me see other sides of the issue, and while I may not agree too much, I do respect your opinions.
Thanks!

Apljak,
likewise, I enjoy the conversation.

Ray,
Now let me put my man pants back on...

You Liberals are all stupid and don't make any sense!

There I feel better! :-) (just kidding!)

@Really,
You are so against this "unholy trinity" yet you are already trying to see how is it that you can start eroding the quality of education by lowering standards of these superior institutions, both religious based and secular?
That is one of the fundamental reasons why public education is where it is at...lower the standards so that no one feels bad--don't strengthen strength, strengthen weakness! Not the best model for our most important institution!

I have no idea what you are trying to say, do you want to try typing that in English?

@Really,
Sorry that you have comprehension issues. Unfortunately it is exacerbated by your need to spontaneously utter random idiotic statements.
Maybe re-read it a little more slowly and feel free to quietly follow along with the rest of the class.
If not, just feel free to fold your arms and lay your head down. We will let you know when recess arrives.

Sorry, I didn't see that everyone else was making fun of your writing as well. Didn't mean to pile on. Maybe just try proof reading your posts before you hit send.

Point made.
Keep trying @Really?? to utter even something remotely insightful or contributory to the discourse. We don't mind waiting...

You Cons are such elitists

"If any of us are forcefully paying for what *Ray decides* is a "public good," even though we don't agree it's a *good*, then we are redistributing everyone else's income to satisfy Ray's whim: that's the problem that Ray doesn't quite understand"

Pure Bull snot.

Mr. EJLR conveniently leaves out the democratic process.

Ray didn't decide anything. The public school system, our road system, our protective services, our military decisions are decided by all of us through the democratic process.

We live in a Democratic Republic. Mr. EJLR's argument is not reality based.

Mr. EJLR's strawman is that government is making our decisions for us. That's a lie. We make our decisions through our government via the elected officials that we put in office.

Mr. EJLR ignores 237 years of American history.

Again, more Bull snot.

You ignore the part where I repeatedly said that everyone is free to either homeschool their kids or send them to private school.

You advocate feudalism. A system where you are a Lord unto yourself.

In 1776, we rid ourselves of nobility.

Absolutely false.

I pay and we all pay for public services, whether it's school or libraries or roads. I pay taxes for plenty of things I don't use directly.

There are childless couples in Nashua who pay taxes for schools for decades who never use the servvice.

The system for public schools was here long before you and me. We determined that we all pay for schools.

I don't get anything for free pal.

@Ray,
If that library had no books, you would probably seek to better it.
If roads and bridges are no longer adequate, you would probably seek to improve it, i.e., new bridges and widening 3 and 93...not just trying to maintain a road or bridge that can't handle modern traffic needs.
Public Education IS broken and you can pretend all you want that it isn't. It is akin to a monopoly and that is a recipe for inadequate results.
Keep making stuff up, though. I just hope your children are already out!

Apljak,
If the library had no books, I would seek to improve it.

You are correct.

That means the City would spend more of our tax money to buy books and improve the public library, not privatize the library system.

The public school system is not broken. And privatization of public schools is not a proven method of improving the dissemination of education to the public.

In fact, for profit privatization at the college level is a disaster.

EJLR,
It would be nice to have a decent conversation, a back and forth, with someone without the false accusations.

I'm not the issue. the issue has to do with public school versus tax credits.

You paranoid people who think everyone is out for your money are looking for a foil or scapegoat.

Look somewhere else, stick to the issue for God sakes.
...

Ray,
You are the one who falsely accused me of "making things up"
I never said you are the issue. In fact, I have tried to make a point on each comment that I believe that education tax credits help improve our schools.
It has been your repetitive introduction of fringe issues and false presentation of "facts" that devolve the discourse.
I don't mind paying my fair share and then some in taxes but I do expect some accountability! And I believe that average families deserve a choice as well.
Tax Credits would afford that and cause Public Schools to step up and improve!
Why don't you get off your high horse?

@Ray,
Sorry, my bad! I didn't see the EJLR there!
Got my Irish up!

Very astute and well written.
I would hazard to guess that perhaps employees or sympathizers to the employees of the public school system would be very much against a competitive model subsidized by the same trough from which they feed.
I find it amazing that those who say they want the best education for our youth wouldn't be open to a "trial", so to speak, in pursuit of improving the overall educational culture.

"Proponents of continued government provision point to the lack of private provision as a justification, but they have reversed the causality."

Mr. Cobb,
thank you for responding.

Actually, the facts prove you wrong.

Thomas Jefferson observed that the free markets failed in providing poor students with an education because their families were priced out of the market. Government does not have a monopoly in the education industry. Without government stepping in, a lot of students, including you and me, would never have received an education.

You've got it backwards. Government began providing the service because the free market did not meet the needs of students because they were priced out of the market. This is fact.

It's not a coincidence that Abe Lincoln, born in a poor family, received no formal education and his wife, Mary Todd, being born in a rich family, received a formal education.

And public education in America is a "non-profit" enterprise, owned by the people in the communities. The people in the communities own the schools and hire the teachers. It is not a nationalized monopoly. It is not socialism.

"...why do you oppose financing the educations of those using other providers."

Because the providers are exclusive and discriminatory. Public money should not be made available to those who discriminate.

These providers are in a niche market because they choose to be in a niche market.

@Ray,
I read your post about financing and discrimination a few times over because on the surface, it is hard to dispute, however, when analyzed more deeply, I must disagree.
I would argue that most government subsidies or programs are managed by that very notion. There is typically a qualification process and then in many cases, benefit is commensurate by need. This is both exclusionary and discriminatory.;
There are many people who are precluded from programs because they don't qualify.
If a student was not prepared for a curriculum of a private school, they should be excluded; otherwise they would be set up to fail.
I agree that there is zero place for racial, gender, or any other form of social discrimination. In fact, that should be prosecuted if it were to occur.
But entrance exams would not be something that should restrict funding as it is entirely appropriate and in keeping with any other government program.
I would argue tht "niche market" is more of a misnomer than fact. These institutions exist because their mission statement defines an intent to provide an alternative to other local programs.

Dear Steve, your observation of education systems in Europe without naming a country was by far "inadequate to prove any points" as you would say. Vouchers don't go up in value while private school tuitions do..it's the same voucher system that Republicans would like to use for the poor housing and renters do not have to accept them.

Steve,
Unfortunately, I think that many of the posters here have become "broken records" and seem to just look for a variety of different ways to say the same "propaganda-based phrases" over and over! Maybe in hopes that if they say it enough times, other people will also believe the "malarchy!"

" I think that many of the posters here have become "broken records" and seem to just look for a variety of different ways to say the same "propaganda-based phrases"" were you talking about yourself AppleJack?

@Steve,
Just a quick note, The quote about believing in God was actually not mine. I received it by email update from the Nashua Patch. If you re-read it, it actually was written by someone by the username "Really??
I just thought it strange that he/she would make the comment because by their previous posts, I would not have concluded that they believed in God; although they may have been spiritual.
And one other, I am Catholic but I am a Massachusetts Public School graduate, not the product of a Catholic school upbringing. I don't know that the nuns and I would have meshed very well!! LOL! They barely tolerated me in my CCD classes!
Your writing is well thought out and I enjoy reading your contributions.
I was a little further down (12 out of 417 students) but I look back fondly on my Public Education.
I will state for the record, however, that my Private School counterparts (Phiilips Andover, Brooks, etc...) were definitely better prepared for college!

Of course your family life would have nothing to do with your success in public schools....my son tried to not do his homework for a while but his home life wouldn't allow it...your support system matters regardless if you are in a private or public school...you can still fail....vouchers don't fix home life....no stress over money sometimes improves a home life...it's not always, but it helps....rich not mixing with the commoners is what private school is all about....

@Sonia,
You make several valid points. And I commend you on your involvement with your children's schoolwork. I have seen too many situations where the parents aren't involved!
And yes, I must admit that there is an elitist component, albeit small--not like 50-100 years ago, to private school education that is inherent in our society.
But to say that is what defines a private school education really denigrates the tenacious efforts of a larger segment born from families who choose to make sacrifices for tuition because they believe it offers a better alternative for their children.
Vouchers and education tax credits are by no means a panacea, however, they can serve as one component of a multi-pronged approach to improving our public education system.

America's public schools are the best in the world, they more than just compete.

"the best in the world,"

That is not reality. Not even in the top ten:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/dec/07/world-education-rankings-maths-science-reading

Depressing, isn't it?!
Not surprising as it has been a downward trend for the 20 years, but depressing nonetheless!
Yet, here we have a gaggle of apologists and protectionists for their sacred cow!
And people still wonder why things stay the same! Too many people are willing to accept mediocrity if the philosophy and money flow suit their needs!

What your data does not take into effect is America's overwhelmingly large poverty rate(20%+). Take only US schools with 15% poverty or less and they outperform every country on your list. As example Finland's poverty rate is 3.4%, Canada 13.6%.

Apljak, Show me data that supports your 20 year downward trend fantasy. You Cons just love making stuff up.

"Public Schools cannot compete because Unions take the money and Unions refuse performance evaluation for the Teachers."

OK genuis, where do the unions hide all that money, next to Romney's in the Caribbean?

There are many teachers on Forbes 500, and they all have elevators for their cars in their Malibu mansions.

@Steve,
My pleasure. I thought it would...
Keep fighting the good fight!

Where is this comment I allegedly made that you two keep crying about?

@Really,
I received this on Wednesday at 8:07. Did you not write it? Someone hack your computer? I assume you deleted it after reading how stupid it sounded...

"Hi Apljak,
Really?? also commented on Two Reasons Why Education Tax Credits Are Not State Support of Religious Schools.
""As a devout atheist " the rejection of belief in God? Rejection? Anyone who doesn't believe in God has some serious cognitive shortcomings. Why would anyone take anything else you say seriously? An Agnostic, maybe......But an Atheist? Please...."
To respond view the comment on Patch."

Does that help your memory?

I deleted it when I realized it wasn't as funny as it sounded in my head, it was barely up for three seconds.
You get all these feeds sent to your email? Do you have a job? It must be so maddening to get 300 emails a day.

@Really,
I know. The emails are crazy.
It's just that sometimes I forget to uncheck the box.
Like I said to Ray, I enjoy the discussion with you guys.
I hope you don't mind some good natured ribbing or childish insult from time to time.

Did someone say all people who want school vouchers are rich?

"Did someone say all people who want school vouchers are rich?"

Sonia did earlier in the thread... Hit <crtl> F and search on "rich"

Seamus, if only you could read correctly, the vouchers in time will be worth less and less because they won't keep up with inflation (that's how vouchers work); and yes it will eventually only be for the rich...like in Ethiopia...only the rich get to go to school. Weeds out the poor from the rich for education.

Seamus, if only you could read correctly, the "vouchers" in time will be worth less and less because they won't keep up with inflation (that's how vouchers work); and yes it will eventually only be for the rich...like in Ethiopia...only the rich get to go to school. Weeds out the poor from the rich for education.

Sure, because we are so similar to Ethiopia...ugh!

Inflation affecting School vouchers is just one more Democrat Talking Point.

Even if it were a real concern, wouldn't it be more worthwhile to treat the root cause of inflation (stop arbitrarily printing money) and get government spending under control?

surprised you guys are still on this page; looking to stir up some old conversation over and over and over?

heh heh heh...

Private school barely costs as much as daycare.